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Scott Johnston
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Josh:
To get yourself used to faster paces, you need to start incorporating more fast training. Start by adding “strides” or “pick-ups” (TftUA pages 168-169) into 1-2 of your runs. After you have completed 4 of these sessions to help you access some faster twitch fibers, add on a session of hill sprints (TftUA pages 179-183) per week and drop to 1 stride/pick-up run per week.
This will help you add another gear to your running and build some running-specific leg strength.
You might find this post helpful and motivating https://evokeendurance.com/forums/topic/aet-and-ant-too-close-together/
Scott
Hey Quentin.
Thanks for asking his very good question. That’s a great training plan you have that Mike and I wrote. It is one of the most popular plans we used to offer and many people have had great success with it.
First, the Anaerobic efforts. The quote you mention from TftUA is correct. This training does make up a tiny fraction of the overall yearly volume. These are essentially longer hill sprints. They combine the training effect of power you were getting from the hill sprints with some of the muscular endurance benefits.
The debate about using aerobic endurance training (Z3, tempo) vs aerobic power training (sometimes called maxVO2 or Z4) is one that has no black-and-white answer. What we’ve been seeing for the past few years with ultra runners, especially top-level ones like Tom Evans, is evidence that the benefits of being able to spend more time in Z3 during these “tempo” workouts simulate more closely the intensity of the harder efforts during ultras. Z4 training entails longer recovery and lower volume in individual workouts. The athlete’s recover faster from the Z3 work than from Z4; it affects their overall training volume less than when we add Z4.
Where possible, we’re controlling the intensity of this training using lactate monitoring. But with others, we’re giving them the guidance that these efforts should feel like 85%. Like they have another gear if they wanted to run faster.
I think it would be easier for you to handle one long hill sprint workout and one long Z3 tempo run (for example, 3x15min on the terrain you feel the weakest on) in a week than the long hill sprint + Z4 intervals.
I hope this helps.
Scott
Josh:
Here are a few thoughts on your test procedure. Could it be that the 18% grade made the test muscularly more demanding than your training has prepared you for? Saying this another way: maybe muscular endurance was causing the high RPE?? With a 2% drift, I’d suggest that your AeT is likely around 155ish.
Was the 20 min steep uphill at 160-163 pretty much “all out”? If so, that would indicate an AnT of 163ish.
With such a small spread between thresholds, you probably need to do most of your aerobic base training down in Z1, which for you is probably below 140. As a further verification of that, think about whether you could train daily in the 150-155 range and recover enough to repeat the same workout the next day, and the next, and the next. Probably not, based on your comments. So Z2 training is just too close to your AnT to allow training their too often.
I hope this helps.
ScottPlease read this article for a deeper explanation. But in a word, it is not possible to build capacity and utilize it simultaneously. As you have figured out, you will need some recovery after a major utilization session, like a big climbing objective, and you will want to taper a bit before the next objective. As you are figuring out, this does not leave much time for training (AKA capacity building). If you have done a good job of building capacity in those first 22 weeks, you should be fine shifting gears to this more specific utilization period to make your training more event specific.
I hope that helps,
Scottffilosa1:
Some of the guys we’ve worked with, especially the SEALs do some “rolling” or BJJ. Depending on your aerobic status; meaning can you run 8min/mile at your aerobic threshold or are you aerobically deficient? and need to emphasize building your aerobic base?
Doing a couple of hours of high intensity MMA each week is going to slow your aerobic development dramatically unless you are able to do 10 hours/week of aerobic base work.
Training is demand-driven. First understand the demands of the event you are training for. Then train to address those demands. Training for other stuff that is not related to those demands is a time and energy suck. In the case of aerobic base development you will actually y be going backward by doing high intensity training with trying to build that aerobic base.
We’ve coached quite few guys for Tier 1 and 2 selections. I always tell them: This is your Olympics. You need to train like an Olympian. Training like a professional. That will entail sacrifices. If you are aerobically deficient that means taking a several months break from MMA in order to improve THE single biggest factor that will affect your performance at SFAS….AEROBIC BASE CAPACITY.
Scott
Ryan:
The lactate shuttle does become the limiter to your endurance at the lactate threshold. By definition, the lactate threshold or anaerobic threshold occurs when the lactate removal rate just equals the lactate production rate. Since this metabolic threshold represents your endurance limit and since the removal rate is dependent on the shuttle the shuttle becomes the limiter to your endurance.
I hope this helps. You might want to read this article https://evokeendurance.com/126579-2/
Scott
Assaf:
Your final comment about trying to cover as much vert as you can in the time allotted is actually the goal. The feedback on the legs being the limitation is simply what nearly everyone I have ever had feedback from feels when doing this workout. Good Luck.
Scott
Just:
You say that you had to move unreasonably slow to keep the pace sustainable. Why? What was limiting your pace?
You can’t compare outdoor climbing speed to a stairmachine. Outdoors you will be hard pressed to find a slope over 50%. A stair master is close to 100% grade. Much, much steeper than outside making it harder. Plus the stairs are falling away from you as you step up on to the next one. You actually only raise your body about 1/2 of the step height. Otherwise, you would hike right up and off the end of the machine In short you just can’t compare these two.
Scott
You can have good ankle dorsiflexion and still have good calf stiffness. I would start with ankle dorsiflexion static stretches to get your heels on the ground more when hiking up hills. Having your lower legs on fire on the uphills is not ideal. When muscles relax, blood can flow into them and help with that burning feeling. But not being able to go through a normal range of motion in your ankle, you are keeping these lower leg muscles too tight for too long
Can you get into a deep squat? Butt down close to the floor, heels flat on the floor. Stay there as long as you can. This will help your hips and ankles. You must have good ROM in all your leg joints, or you will put undue stress on other joints.
Jumping rope, two feet at a time, off your toes will help build muscular endurance in the lower legs. Locked knee, toe bounce is another way.
I suggest a two-pronged approach. Increase dorsiflexion ROM and some calf ME work.
Scott
Jeremy:
The Garmin Lactate Threshold estimation will not give the same result as our HR Drift test. The HR drift test is used to determine the aerobic threshold. The Lactate Threshold, as Garmin uses it, is equivalent to our Anaerobic Threshold. If you really want to know your AnT/LT you should conduct our AnT. It’s going to be more accurate. This article will give you more information about these tests https://evokeendurance.com/our-latest-thinking-on-aerobic-assessment-for-the-mountain-athlete/.
I hope this helps.
Scott
Jeremy;
All sustained exercise in the aerobic realm stimulates many adaptations in the working muscle cells, resulting in improved aerobic capacity. I have heard some discussions that glycogen depletion in non-active muscles will also improve aerobic function. But I think the main benefit will occur only in the working muscles. Since the mitochondria are where all the aerobic metabolism occurs, these adaptations that I alluded to take place mainly in the mitochondria. Increased capitalization in the working muscles is a benefit that takes place outside the mitochondria.
In short, z1 and Z2 training improves mitochondrial function (efficiency might not be the correct term as it has several different definitions). Because this intensity is powered mainly by ST muscle fibers, those are the fibers that get the benefit. At higher intensity, faster twitch fibers are used, and those fibers see an increase in their aerobic function (again mainly due to mitochondrial adaptations).
I hope this helps,
Scott
Assaf:
Thanks for writing in with your questions about the ME workouts. You seem to understand the theory of ME training based on your listing of the 3 main principles.
Here are some random thoughts on your questions:
The weighted carry type of ME that you are doing for mountaineering will rarely give you sore legs. Whereas the gym ME will definitely make you sore. So wrecked legs may be too extreme a word to use. I doubt you’d be able to turn around and repeat that workout the next day, right?
Disregard HR for ME workouts. This is in the instructions.
You need to pace yourself since this is about sustained sub-max effort, not a 10min all-out effort. If you were on your knees after 1o minutes I think you are pushing too fast at the start on the stair machine.
The stair machine for 45-60min stair machine sessions will give a better effect than your shorter harder efforts and the less steep hill.
I’m unsure why you are seeing such a high heart rate and breathing. That is very unusual. Normally I would say the pack is too light, but 50% of BW is more than enough for almost anyone to achieve the leg limitation we strive for.
There is some possibility that your aerobic base is not yet as well developed as would be ideal, and this is causing the higher HR and breathing.
Regardless, the ME effect will be there even if you are breathing very hard.
If you use the machine, you should track the vertical distance in each session to see improvement. There should be marked improvement from session to session. If not then your recovery is insufficient.
I hope this helps.
Scott
Andrew:
I think you answered your own question. If you were forced to walk during the AnT test not because of your breathing but because of local leg muscle fatigue, then ME is the limitation for your AnT. You will benefit from adding ME training to your plan. Either Z3 longer hill reps, weighted uphill hikes or the gym ME program will all help this.
Scott
I’m so glad you have found a use outside running for the RunPowerModel. Several of the Evoke coaches are now using it as am I. Because I’m often on very hilly terrain and forced to walk, I have been pleased to see the TSS scores better reflect what I perceive in terms of effort.
Thank you Markus for hopping into this conversation. I wonder if a year we need to add a new section to the forum concerning running with power.
Scott
