Athlete Login
Scott Johnston
Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Great conversation. Seth is right on the combo of ME and hill sprints and you, Kevin, have experienced the gains first hand. With reference to Luke Nelson’s ME training before his top ten at the Tor d’Geant 300+km race: Luke did 13 of the gym ME workouts over the course of 16 weeks. Some work and training interruptions always happen. We then shifted to 1x/week of steep uphill intervals for 6 weeks before tapering. We used a hill that Luke has trained on and affectionately named “Stupid Steep” because the average gradient is 35% or so. Each of the 3 reps lasted about 15min when we started which already very close to Luke’s PR on that hill. Each session his time kept improving and by the end he was doing 3 reps all about 2min after than his old one rep PR. I chalk this up to the fact that as the weeks went on the lingering fatigue from the gym ME wore off.
Scott
Ralfm:
Yes, that kind of session is going to be very typical for most people’s Z2 work and it will get the job done.
Scott
Christian:
This is news to me and I do not have any experience with this device nor the ability to track core temp and HR. I wonder if some studies are showing this product in use.
Scott
Ralf:
If the goal is to improve your aerobic capacity/elevate your AeT then you need to train below your AeT. The drift test tells you whether the STARTING heart rate was at or below your AeT. Your AeT does not drift up during a long ski tour.
Scott
Doug:
Based on what you have said I think you can trust the results of this test. I suspect that your starting HR might have been lower than 130 since HR bounces around a lot. maybe try averaging your HR data for the first 5 or 10 minutes. If you do want to retest I would hold the starting HR for longer to allow it to stabilize.
Scott
As soon as you are rested enough to get back to training I would focus on the ME weighted STEEP uphill carries. This is the surest way to increase your uphill performance. These must be steep to be effective and if you have access to a stair master that will be the best bang for the time spent.
Scott
Adam:
Welcome to the Evoke community. We are glad you found us. That is a pile of good questions and I will do my best to provide answers but most of the answers will of necessity be general in nature.
1) Variation in aerobic assessment results:
As you have grasped temperature affects HR drastically and there is no way I know of to account for the variation with varying temperatures when assigning intensity, especially with swings of 20C.
By ‘indoors’ I assume you mean on a treadmill. While some of the variation in HR to Pace could be due to convective cooling outside, it is also very likely that your treadmill’s speed readings are not accurate and so you are not comparing apple to apples. Only laboratory grade treadmills like the Woodway will provide accuracy and repeatability. This article shows the fix I use https://evokeendurance.com/treadmill-season/
Your “feels like Z3 to me” comment:If it feels like Z3, feels fast and feels relatively hard then it is very likely Z3 (unless fatigue is the cause). Do not become too data driven. You have a very sophisticate built in feedback system in your nervous system. Pay attention to the sensations in your training and try to correlate those to HR in a GENERAL way. We are not machines and so complex that to expect 100% repeatability is unrealistically. From what you say it is possible that your AeT and AnT are quite close together and that is why on some days Zone 2 feels harder than others. Fatigue and recovery status play a big role day to day.
2) Training Methodology
1) Your outline of the plan looks very solid. Best not to get too detailed with this plan, like locking yourself into a weekly schedule 6 weeks out. It is a waste of time to try to get too detailed that far in advance. I like the way you have laid out the areas of focus. The ME work is going to be the vital component that will really pay off in the mountains so before you have at least 8 weeks of a solid ME progression using steep weighted uphills carries. A star machine is ideal for this.
2) Upper body ME should be done in as climbing specific modality as possible. Cranking out hundreds of pull ups is great upper body ME work but doing something like weighted climbing on lower grade routes will probably pay off better. Something like laps in a gym with a weight vest on a grade you can do 10minutes continuous climbing (climb up, climb down) will be a good session for alpine climbing. Rest and repeat. This can be done in conjunction with lower body ME work.
3) ME: If you had a longer time frame then starting with the Gym ME and moving to the weighted steep hikes would be ideal. Give the time you have I would stick with the most specific training which is weighted hikes.
4) You will see gains in ME in the first couple of workouts but getting in at least 8 week will be very helpful, 12 weeks even better.
I hope this helps.
Scott
Hey Brian;
That ‘burn’ associated with a low HR is EXACTLY what you feel when Local Muscular Endurance is the limitation to speed. It is very common to fill this in your quads when running to hiking steeply uphill outside. But the unrelenting nature of the treadmill that keeps you on your toes forces the calves into meeting their endurance limit. If you were doing this same workout on a stair machine you would not feel your calves but your quads as the limiter. If you shifted to hiking at 25% I suspect the burn will shift more to the quads.
Overall this “burn” is a good and appropriate training effect. As long as you are recovering well enough between sessions that you are seeing progress you are doing this correctly.
Keep it up.
ScottI don’t know of a better way to simulate booting than on a stair master. Besides our very own boot packing machine, Jack Kuenzle swears by these workouts.
Scott
Thanks for writing in with your question. As the grade steepens strength and muscular endurance begin to play larger and larger roles in propelling you upward. Ideally, you’d do a HR drift test on a steep treadmill. 800ft/mile is right at 15% grade. Most treadmills will go to 15%. 1000ft/mile is close to 20% and testing on that grade will require a special treadmill called an incline trainer, some of which will go to 40%.
You have to slow down because your aerobic capacity is too low to support the speed you’d like to be going. I would engage in a leg strengthening program using heavy weighted box step-ups for 6-8 weeks 2x/week and then shift to weighted steep uphill hiking to develop Muscular Endurance(ME). A stair master works great for this type of workout 1x/week.
I’m not sure your interpretation of the slow walking being more demanding because you spend more time on one foot is accurate. When you slow down your HR surely drops.
I do not think TP metrics include a Grade Adjusted Pace. Some Garmin (and other) watches do have that metric
Going well uphill has altogether different fitness demands than hiking or running on gentle terrain. Strength and ME play a huge part. But take the long approach using the methods I mentioned and you will see improvement even during the strength block and bigger gains during the ME block.
Scott
Thanks for writing in with your question. Steep booting (on 50-100% grades) is bio-mechanically different than running even on moderately steep trails (20-30% grade). Steep booting is like climbing a set of steep stairs except that sometimes the steps give way under your weight. Combine the steepness with the fact that you have skis on your pack and you are making a good case for getting stronger legs.
I would do a focused max strength training block of 8 weeks doing box step-ups with a heavy load. Something like 6 sets of 4 reps that start at 75% of 1RM and build to 90% of 1RM for the last 3 sets when reps drop to 2-3.
Then move to an ME phase where you use a stairmaster machine with will closely mimic the steepness of your typical boot pack. Use a weight that gives a mild burn. Hold that effort for a minimum of 30min and try to work up to 60minutes.
This will give you a much faster booting speed.
Scott
Alex:
Like Leonard suggested, running outside for 10 minutes should do the trick. Another option would be a vigorous 10 minute core routine.
Scott
Steve:
The most important thing to do when faced with a schedule like this is to not try to force training. Not only do you have the time change to contend with and the sleep disruption that brings. You may be working very long days. In an 8-9 day period, I would get that big stair climb in since that is very specific to your goal. Make sure you are rested for that workout since it is probably the priority workout for the 8-9 days. One or two max strength sessions should be doable. You can probably fit in one or two Z2 treadmill runs. Trying to pack some training into each day is likely to bring you home exhausted. The consequence of that is that you will have had a compromised 9 days of training on the trip and may need a week to recover if you pushed it too hard on that trip. You just want to do enough to not lose too much ground. Think of this as maintenance week and try to get home fairly rested so you can launch back to full training quickly.
Scott
Brandon:
Bummer that you have had this issue. But I think you’ve handled it pretty well. Sure you could have stopped earlier but this is so common that I rarely see people back off at the first indication of trouble. I’d give it a full week before you dip your toe back into training. If you are already feeling much better after just 4 days that indicates that this was just a bit of overreaching without the desired recovery block afterward. This is not over training or you would not have bounced back so fast.
Try bounding up a flight of stairs and noting how your legs feel. That’s the best test for deciding when to start training again.
Scott
Jim:
These are great questions. At 6-8 weeks out from the main goal of the training everyone, regardless of their aerobic base (ADS or not) must begin to add the kind of event-specific high-intensity training to the program. For mountaineers the most effective type of this sort of training is the uphill weighted ME you’re doing. So you must keep doing these ME sessions on the stair machine regardless of your HR getting into the 180s.
1) Pushing this higher HR does not matter, as long as your legs feel that low-grade continuous burn. Your legs are getting the desired training effect.
2) It is fine to add some more Z1-2 volume in the week as long as you can handle it from the time and energy standpoints.
3) Stair Masters allow you to climb at a nearly 100% gradient. This is very different than most outside steep hills. Once you get over about 40% outside, you will encounter limitations like balance, and feet sliding down the hill. These make it much harder to get the consistent ME work you are getting on the Machine. So the progression is not the same inside as outside.
You can progress your ME training by noting your vertical climb each workout. You should be seeing noticeable gains in vert each ME session. You can also add weight if 62lb begins to feel too easy. But I doubt that is the case.
Keep this up and you will be feeling much stronger on the hills than you ever have.
Scott
