Scott Johnston
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Jeremy: I second the choice of the Lactate Plus meter. Works well. See my article here https://evokeendurance.com/126579-2/
Scott
Josh:
If your “step mill” is of the escalator type, then you should be able to get a very good ME training effect on it. As you progress, you can use some of the saved drive time to extend the ME sessions on the machine. Your hill sounds perfect, though, so maybe occasionally toss in a session there. 40% is very steep and probably will give some good technique training for balance and coordination on steep, rough ground.
Thanks for writing in.
Scott
Dominic;
I’m sure the Cardio Coach will provide accurate data. What is much more important is the test protocol and what you hope to learn from the test.
A standard maxVO2 test usually involves a rapid ramp-up in intensity which zooms through the low-intensity aerobic realm to get you to your highest output before you fatigue; Because the aerobic metabolism is somewhat slow to respond to changes in intensity, it will lag in time, and IMO will not provide you with the information you seek to set zones. A maxVO2 test is good for testing maxVO2.
If you want to find AeT and AnT I recommend you use the tests explained in this article https://evokeendurance.com/our-latest-thinking-on-aerobic-assessment-for-the-mountain-athlete/. These tests will give you the information you need to set your zones. They are free, and you conduct them anytime you want as you see improvements that occur during your training progression.
If they can test you using 3-4 minute stages so the intensity is ramped up slowly, there is a good chance that the data will show AeT (RER=.75), but you or they would need to see the raw data to see that point. They’ll give you an AnT (what they may call lactate threshold (LT)) form this test, but our ANT test is more actionable and is an actual performance test rather than using a proxy like the gas exchange test does.
I hope this is helpful.
ScottAsi;
I’m no physicist either. As an engineer, I have to dumb things down from the Fizziks level to the Engineer (people who drive trains) level.
This is fun and has caused me to spend some time on the interwebs. It turns out this is a subject (climbing a down escalator) that has a fair bit of discussion surrounding it. Let me start by saying: “You are correct” and I have been wrong all these years. Touche, and thank you! I love learning things.
I stumbled upon a Reddit post where a group of engineers were debating this very thing. Those engineers, like me, didn’t come to the same conclusion that you did by using the “frame of reference” argument. They and I came to it from the kinetic vs. potential energy argument.
Climbing fixed stairs involves increasing the potential energy of the person by the amount of kinetic energy it takes to move the mass vertically some distance.
In my now discarded model, I only considered that the person on the stair machine was not increasing their potential energy by moving farther from the surface of the earth. Thus the chemical energy needed to do the work of climbing the down escalator was less than climbing stairs.
What helped me see the error in my thinking is that the escalator climber stays stationary by doing work on the machine to make the stairs move. That work, instead of being converted into the potential energy of raising his mass, is instead converted into heat by the friction of the machine.
Using a thermodynamics (energy) viewpoint is what finally made the dim bulb in my brain flicker to life.
Thanks,
ScottThe need for more core and upper body strength work for alpine climbing and mountaineering on steep (and technical) terrain with a heavy pack is greater than for running.
BUT…and this is important. Any strength training program should be individualized to your needs and weakness.
I hope this helps.
Scott
Assaf: That’s great news that you figured the ME out. You may have seen a YT video of me doing this workout years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI-_rcWcwiY You can clearly see that I am not going at a sprint effort. You might also have seen on our IG recently a Tuesday Training Tip by coach Seth Keena a short video of him doing this same workout. It is also very clear that he is not moving very fast.
With regard to the stair machine: Here is my understanding.
If work is force x distance the mass is moved, then the work done against gravity (energy expended) on the stair machine is a function of the distance your mass is raised. Your mass is not raised by the full height of each step when on a stair machine because as you step up, the step falls away beneath you. If your mass was raised to the full height of each step, you would quickly hike right off the top of the machine. It would seem to me that the frame of reference must include the earth and its gravity since that is what you are working against. With each step, your mass is oscillating up and then back down in relation to the center of the earth but not by the full step height. This is not the same as when running on a train, where the frame of reference does not need to include the earth because the runner is not working to overcome gravity.
IMO: The reason for high RPE on a stair machine, which gives the impression that this is just as hard if not harder than hiking steeply uphill, is that the gradient is something close to 100%, which is much steeper than almost any terrain you could hike on outside, combined with the step size being significantly greater than the step hight on, say a 30% grade.
But I am happy to hear a rebuttal to my argument.
Scott
Josh:
To get yourself used to faster paces, you need to start incorporating more fast training. Start by adding “strides” or “pick-ups” (TftUA pages 168-169) into 1-2 of your runs. After you have completed 4 of these sessions to help you access some faster twitch fibers, add on a session of hill sprints (TftUA pages 179-183) per week and drop to 1 stride/pick-up run per week.
This will help you add another gear to your running and build some running-specific leg strength.
You might find this post helpful and motivating https://evokeendurance.com/forums/topic/aet-and-ant-too-close-together/
Scott
Hey Quentin.
Thanks for asking his very good question. That’s a great training plan you have that Mike and I wrote. It is one of the most popular plans we used to offer and many people have had great success with it.
First, the Anaerobic efforts. The quote you mention from TftUA is correct. This training does make up a tiny fraction of the overall yearly volume. These are essentially longer hill sprints. They combine the training effect of power you were getting from the hill sprints with some of the muscular endurance benefits.
The debate about using aerobic endurance training (Z3, tempo) vs aerobic power training (sometimes called maxVO2 or Z4) is one that has no black-and-white answer. What we’ve been seeing for the past few years with ultra runners, especially top-level ones like Tom Evans, is evidence that the benefits of being able to spend more time in Z3 during these “tempo” workouts simulate more closely the intensity of the harder efforts during ultras. Z4 training entails longer recovery and lower volume in individual workouts. The athlete’s recover faster from the Z3 work than from Z4; it affects their overall training volume less than when we add Z4.
Where possible, we’re controlling the intensity of this training using lactate monitoring. But with others, we’re giving them the guidance that these efforts should feel like 85%. Like they have another gear if they wanted to run faster.
I think it would be easier for you to handle one long hill sprint workout and one long Z3 tempo run (for example, 3x15min on the terrain you feel the weakest on) in a week than the long hill sprint + Z4 intervals.
I hope this helps.
Scott
Josh:
Here are a few thoughts on your test procedure. Could it be that the 18% grade made the test muscularly more demanding than your training has prepared you for? Saying this another way: maybe muscular endurance was causing the high RPE?? With a 2% drift, I’d suggest that your AeT is likely around 155ish.
Was the 20 min steep uphill at 160-163 pretty much “all out”? If so, that would indicate an AnT of 163ish.
With such a small spread between thresholds, you probably need to do most of your aerobic base training down in Z1, which for you is probably below 140. As a further verification of that, think about whether you could train daily in the 150-155 range and recover enough to repeat the same workout the next day, and the next, and the next. Probably not, based on your comments. So Z2 training is just too close to your AnT to allow training their too often.
I hope this helps.
ScottPlease read this article for a deeper explanation. But in a word, it is not possible to build capacity and utilize it simultaneously. As you have figured out, you will need some recovery after a major utilization session, like a big climbing objective, and you will want to taper a bit before the next objective. As you are figuring out, this does not leave much time for training (AKA capacity building). If you have done a good job of building capacity in those first 22 weeks, you should be fine shifting gears to this more specific utilization period to make your training more event specific.
I hope that helps,
Scottffilosa1:
Some of the guys we’ve worked with, especially the SEALs do some “rolling” or BJJ. Depending on your aerobic status; meaning can you run 8min/mile at your aerobic threshold or are you aerobically deficient? and need to emphasize building your aerobic base?
Doing a couple of hours of high intensity MMA each week is going to slow your aerobic development dramatically unless you are able to do 10 hours/week of aerobic base work.
Training is demand-driven. First understand the demands of the event you are training for. Then train to address those demands. Training for other stuff that is not related to those demands is a time and energy suck. In the case of aerobic base development you will actually y be going backward by doing high intensity training with trying to build that aerobic base.
We’ve coached quite few guys for Tier 1 and 2 selections. I always tell them: This is your Olympics. You need to train like an Olympian. Training like a professional. That will entail sacrifices. If you are aerobically deficient that means taking a several months break from MMA in order to improve THE single biggest factor that will affect your performance at SFAS….AEROBIC BASE CAPACITY.
Scott
Ryan:
The lactate shuttle does become the limiter to your endurance at the lactate threshold. By definition, the lactate threshold or anaerobic threshold occurs when the lactate removal rate just equals the lactate production rate. Since this metabolic threshold represents your endurance limit and since the removal rate is dependent on the shuttle the shuttle becomes the limiter to your endurance.
I hope this helps. You might want to read this article https://evokeendurance.com/126579-2/
Scott
Assaf:
Your final comment about trying to cover as much vert as you can in the time allotted is actually the goal. The feedback on the legs being the limitation is simply what nearly everyone I have ever had feedback from feels when doing this workout. Good Luck.
Scott
Just:
You say that you had to move unreasonably slow to keep the pace sustainable. Why? What was limiting your pace?
You can’t compare outdoor climbing speed to a stairmachine. Outdoors you will be hard pressed to find a slope over 50%. A stair master is close to 100% grade. Much, much steeper than outside making it harder. Plus the stairs are falling away from you as you step up on to the next one. You actually only raise your body about 1/2 of the step height. Otherwise, you would hike right up and off the end of the machine In short you just can’t compare these two.
Scott
