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Scott Johnston
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Patrick:
Since you mention the HR being in the low 140s, I would call the starting HR 143.
No problem that the test was only 50min.
Rather than redo the test, just set your Z2 top a little higher, like 145-147 range and train there for few weeks.
Scott
Thanks for sending in your test. My thoughts are the following:
1) You need to do most of your aerobic base training between 110 and 130 to flatten out the lactate curve (lower lactate levels).
2) People with your training background will often have a very low AeT relative to MAF and can breathe comfortably much higher than AeT.
3) The drop in pace as distance increases is to be expected when your aerobic capacity is low. That’s because you are relying too heavily on the anaerobic metabolic pathway.
Scott
David:
Thanks for writing in with your test results. Running and uphill hiking tests commonly give different drift results. This hiking test shows almost no drift, so redoing it at a slightly higher speed would not hurt.
Scott
Christian:
That rule of thumb, which states that you should be able to do the same run day after day, does not apply to the long run of the week. We normally program the long run of the week on the weekend when most people have more time and then usually make Monday a rest day. Try arranging your week so you have a rest day after the long run and see if this does not help.
Scott.
I love my non-weight-adjustable Everlast 20lb vest for ME workouts and hill sprints. It is nice and tight fitting with elastic where needed. I’ve got other weight-adjustable vests that go to 60lb, but they fit like crap and bounce when you jump. The Everlast, you can actually run with.
Scott
David;
Short answer: YES! Since you are going to be limited to uphill hiking/running while injured, it makes sense to conduct the drift test at the same gradient you will be training on.
Good luck with the injury. ITB syndrome is no joke.
Scott
This is a great strategy. It seems like a lot of ultra runners pack their racing schedule so full that there is little time for the training they really need in order to perform at their best. You’ve identified several qualities you need to address and with the long training blocks between races you’ll have plenty of time to develop those qualities. Don’t forget to add to the list of qualities you need to prepare, fueling and gear.
Good luck, and stay in touch.
Scott
If you have seen a 50% improvement in aerobic pace i 9 months that’s fantastic and you can probably expect to see more gains by keeping your Z2 volume high. I would suggest adding ME training. Your legs are sore after a big day in the mountains probably due to the down hill. You might benefit from doing step downs like I am demoing in this old video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqK5Xy00BjY. I’m not sure what sort of ME you are doing but I have never seen a mountain athlete of any kind (runner, skier, hiker, mountaineer) that didn’t benefit for using weighted uphill carries as described in this article https://evokeendurance.com/muscular-endurance-all-you-need-to-know/.
Scott
Matthew: Nose breathing is definitely NOT required for Z2 running. For many people, nose breathing is hard to pull off due to restrictions. While ‘ventilation’ is a great indicator of AeT it is best done in a lab using a gas exchange test.
dbroman: When you get over 2 hours you will likely see a more significant HR drift due to dehydration and an increase in core temp. So, I would not be too concerned over those drift numbers.
I hope this helps,
Scott
With these or anyone’s stock training plan we do not know who will be using it and their personal level. So we must start very conservatively. In your case you might want to jump to 10%BW. Be a ware that the fatigue may not show up until a couple of days after that training session. You can use the recommendation in our ME article as guidelines. https://evokeendurance.com/muscular-endurance-all-you-need-to-know/
Scott
Highpointer:
Great to hear from you and your journey to get to this point. It sounds like things are ticking along nicely with your training. That 24 week plan has gotten literally hundreds of folks up Denali. Stick with it and you should be fine from a fitness stand point. Be remember to keep honing your technical skills.
You might take some comfort in knowing that world renowned ortho surgeon Dick Steadman who performed 5 knee surgeries on me once told me that the ACL was over rated and that a significant portion of the NFL are playing football with compromised or missing ACLs. Dick would know because he worked on so many pro athletes and gave them back their careers.
Good Luck
Scott
Steve:
Nice to hear from a fellow XC skier. Yes I knew John Albert pretty well. He really understood training using the Norwegian method. I remember several long training discussions we had over a beer or two in West Yellowstone. Both of us being engineers could relate well. I was very sad to hear of his passing. He had a big influence in Sun Vally. TBK, what a character he was. My wife and were probably his first US friends when the USST hired him to coach the women’s team which in the mid 80s was based in Boulder, CO where we lived at the time. I trained a lot of hours with Torbjorn.
Anyway…On to your questions. Here is how I would make the most of the ME training to improve your XC skiing endurance. What you are doing now sounds perfect. Nice gradual progression in weight. I’m a little hazy on the duration end of things though. Is your hill 24 minutes long? You might consider doing 2 laps if so. Dump the water at the top and refill when you get to the bottom.
But as the fall progresses I would recommend shifting to a more XC ski specific ME workout. What you are doing has got you moving at too slow of a cadence. It is building good strength and ME fair very steep hills but we don’t have 40% grades in XC skiing. Especially on the Rendezvous course. I would find a 15-20% grade hill and using moose-hoof technique and no more that 10% of your body weight do weighted uphill intervals at a Z3sort of intensity feeling. Keep the reps long, like 8-10min and eventually accumulate up to 45min of this work. Start with something like 3x8min with either a full walk down recovery or if the hill is long enough you will get better effect from 2-3 min easy walking recovery between reps.
It sounds like you have a laid a great ME base but you need to turn this work into something a bit more specific to your goal event.
Good Luck
Scott
Danny:
More good questions on this topic. Let’s start with the first one you asked.
I’m doubtful it would be possible for one to maintain a lactate level of 4mMol/L for 50% of a marathon. I’m speculating here because there is a dearth of info on this topic. It might help us if we go back to first principles and examine what is happening metabolically to power the marathon. To run at around 5min/mile speeds takes a lot of glucose or a high glycolytic flux because glycolysis is a faster way of regenerating ATP than is fat metabolism. Remember that the main byproduct of glycolysis is pyruvate which if it hangs around in the cytosol converts to lactate. Both pyruvate and lactate are high-energy fuels if they can be taken into the mitochondria and oxidized. The bigger the aerobic capacity of the muscle fibers the more mitochondrial density and the greater capacity to take up that pyruvate and lactate and do something useful with it. So, while these faster marathoners are producing a lot of lactate it is not accumulating in the cytosol of the cells and blood lactate levels remain fairly low because they have huge aerobic capacity (the big vacuum I refer to in the books). Finding the balance of the fastest speed with the lowest lactate is the goal of any endurance racer in any distance race. That is why we use the types of workouts I mentioned before. It should be obvious that someone who can run 3x5km with a lactate level of around 2.5mMol/L is going to be able to sustain that pace for longer than someone producing 3mMol/L. Not running out of our quite limited glycogen stores before the final miles of a marathon is one of the biggest issues facing any marathoner.
Only someone who paced themselves perfectly would have the glycolytic reserves to run fast enough to produce more than 4mMol/L at the end of a marathon since glycogen stores will be very low. I think this would be especially true for the last 10% of the marathon since we could be talking 15 minutes for a 2:30 runner. Fifteen minutes at say 5-6mMol/L after running 23 miles at 5:15min/mile would seem to me to be superhuman. I once lactate tested some top skiers during a 3-hour Zone 2 workout where I asked them to finish with 5 minutes as hard as they could go. What I saw were lactate levels of 2 and below. The only explanation that I could think of was that their glycogen stores were so depleted that they could not produce higher speeds that would have produced higher lactates.
I sometimes employ a very challenging interval workout for both skiers and runners that will cause lactate levels to reach into the 5-8mMol/L range after the 5th and 10th repetition. To check their ability to sprint at the end of the 10th repetition I will have them do an 800m max effort immediately after we get the lactate reading from #10. When they are not yet in shape I will see low lactates and slow times for this 800 (their glycogen tank was nearly empty). As their fitness improves I see the 800 time drop and the lactate levels climb. This tells me that they can conserve glycogen at faster speeds by using more fat. This enables them to have a strong kick at the finish. A great demonstration of this in action was the finishing kick of Cole Hocker’s gold medal 1500 in the Paris Olympics this week. He had to have conserved his glycogen stores to pull that off.
I’m far from an expert on the marathon or physiology. I am working with what I have personally observed and the little understanding I have of metabolism. If you can find some conflicting information on lactate levels during marathon racing please share them here.
Your second question concerning heart rate: I say forget max HR or % of maxHR as they are not relevant to these discussions. What we do is to find the athlete’s individual aerobic and anaerobic thresholds through very simple testing explained here https://evokeendurance.com/our-latest-thinking-on-aerobic-assessment-for-the-mountain-athlete/
These tests will quite accurately and easily identify the athlete’s metabolic response to changes in intensity. If we correlate this to HR we have a reasonable way to prescribe and control training intensity. If you couple that with RPE you have a nice set of tools for controlling and monitoring intensity that will allow the athlete to learn and correlate HR to RPE under most conditions. One problem with RPE alone is that you have no way of connecting that to the underlying metabolism. So, you are just guessing about that all-important metabolic process that is fueling the work you are doing. The other more insidious problem of using RPE alone, especially for beginners with training is that they have no idea what “easy” feels like and tend to train too hard too often. This leads them into over-training. I have had even high-level ultra runners come to me quite overtrained because they relied on RPE alone. As with the above marathon lactate question it is, again, just my observation of hundreds of athletes over several decades.
I’m not sure I have adequately answered you but thanks for the interesting questions.
ScottThanks for the nice words. It is always good to hear that we are having an impact.
Sounds like you are thinking correctly about how best to structure your plan. One comment is to not get too wedded to the minutiae of the plan. Like don’t try to nail exact volumes or what you will be doing 8 Wednesdays from now. Doing so may lock you in to something that isn’t working, may impose unreasonable expectations on yourself and may inhibit the needed flexibility. I never plan concrete training for my athletes more than 2 weeks out and am open to changing the plan on short notice if the need arrises.
If your A race is more than 3-4 hours I would include Z2 training in the early base period. It is an intensity that is very specific to ultra racing and will provide a good base for the Z3-4 stuff. I like to do this during dedicated “tempo” session early min the build up. Like 20min in Z2 during a 1 hour run. As we get close to the event I will put 60min in Z2 during a 3-4 hours run.
You’ll still want to be doing the bulk of your aerobic base maintenance work in Z1. Just monitor fatigue and stay flexible.
Scott
Theodore:
This is such a good question it has really made me pause and think more about that statement I made. Here are a couple more data points. We coach two male ultra runners who also have decently fast marathon times: 2:16 and 2:18. We have done extensive paced training on tracks with both of them to help maintain the speed endurance they bring to ultras. A typical workout of this type (of which have done several) for each of them is to run 3x5km at a pace of 5:10-5:15min/mile (~3:12/km). This would be the pace they would run in order to achieve a 2:15 marathon. Between each 5km they stop for no more than 2min to check blood lactate levels. When they are in good racing form we see lactates of between 2-2.7 depending on the day, temps and wind. These low lactates are what tell us that they are prepared to race well. While this is not the same as stopping someone in the middle of a marathon to test lactate it is a good proxy for running at this intensity. This is similar to what I mentioned in my first reply about Canova controlling the intensity of his marathoners’ training with lactate since this level would be tolerable for the full 42km.
Thanks again for the challenge that made me re-evaluate my thinking.
Scott
