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Scott Johnston
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Brian:
Bjorn is correct. All your metabolic markers like Aet and AnT are going to be sport specific.
I have seen your exact situation occur hundreds of time and it’s why I advocate for muscular endurance training. The BIGGEST limiting factor to maintain submaximal intensity like Z3/4 or AnT work is going to be local muscular fatigue, even for elites. You have picked up up on this as you see your HR drop from rep to rep in those workouts. That’s not because you heart can’t keep up with muscular demand. It is because as the muscles fatigue and motor units drop out of the recruitment pool, the muscle, doing less work needs less oxygen so the heart rate slows. The heart responds to the muscle not the other way around.
Now, you can develop ME with Z3-4 work. That has been the traditional way and works very well for the very fit elites. But that method imposes a significant global fatigue. Specific ME workouts like no poles uphill skating trash your legs and build ME fast they don’t impose nearly the global fatigue load.
Scott
Thanks for writing in with your questions. Let me see if I can help.
You are wise to continue aerobic base building in between mountaineering goals. There is no such thing as having too much aerobic capacity.
You can use the 16 week aerobic progression from your 16 week plan as guidance. Keep in mind though that these plans are the minimum training load we recommend. You may need more, or less. I suggest instead of following the plan blindly you assess your time and energy capacity for these aerobic sessions. Remember that the biggest stimulus to aerobic capacity developoment is volume. More is always going to better up to the point where you are not recovering between sessions.
You must also keep in mind that the improvement in aeriobic pace takes place very slowly. Since you say that are very slow it seems like that you are relatively new to this kind of training and may have aerobic deficiencey. This is something that will take many months of consistent high aerobic training volume to affect. We typically see significant improvements in pace after 6 months of 6-8 hours/week of Z1-2 training. Patience is key here.
Another contributing factor to your speed being slow when you are on a mountain is strength and movement economy. While treadmills and stair machines can build fitness, walking on rough terrain especially with a heavy pack requires strength and skills that must be developed with strength and muscular endurance training coupled with moving in alpine terrain.
All this is to say; don’t give up hope. Since I started writing about these methods, thousands of people have hd good success with them. You will too. I just takes time.
Scott
Nick;
Great questions. The longer shallow sprints are good for building actual leg turnover speed that a sprinter might want to develop. They do entail much more injury risk, especially hamstring. Which is why we don’t advocate them for mountain athletes, almost all of whom will not have a sprinting background. We recommend minimum of 20% grade in the books. The mountain athlete is looking for leg power. The steep sprints give you that without nearly as much injury risk.
The 5 second sprints are going to pay off better for steep uphill mountain running or mountaineering. Don’t worry about the work rest ratio. That kind of advice is only applicable to an endurance training session. That ratio is not important here because we are not training endurance but power. All that matters in max efforts like either one of these is that you are fully recovered between reps. Notice that I specific at least a 3 minute rest between sprints in the books. As soon as you feel the power drop of from one rep to the next, try lengthing the recovery. If that does not allow you to reach the same high point on the next rep, the workout is over.
See if you can find some steep stairs, like the fire stairs in a bulding that you can sprint up for 10 seconds or so. I think those will be more effective than the 5 second version you’re using.
I hope this helps,
Scott
Thanks for writing in with your questions.
If you didn’t change the speed or grade during your test it is likely that your AeT is below 123. What was your perceived level of exertion?
Based on what you have said I would try to retest at 15% and 2mph.
Fitness is relative. And comparisons to others are futile. Unless you are planning to compete, what matters is comparison with yourself.
Based on the information that you gave: 2x/wk of 1-2 hours total time hiking to and from climbs and one 1/week easy hike (maybe 1-2 hours??) you will want to increase the time spent hiking on the great terrain you have around LV if you want to build fitness for long days in the Sierra and Red Rocks. Duration is the single biggest stimulus for increasing aerobic capacity. There is a lot upside potential for you in this regard. we generally advise that if you are targeting a goal of many hours in one day, like Whtiney you should be able to comfortably handle that many hours of steady movement in one week and be able to do do this frequently. This is not to say you could not climb Whitney now. But could you do it quickly without making it a sufferfest?
Training for endurance is a process and results take consistency over many months and years to bring big changes. But those changes are available to all of us if we choose them.
I hope this helps.
ScottBrian:
You are probably not getting the same acclimatization benefit as someone who lives at 7000ft. In experience training XC skiers who lived at 5500ft in Colorado but trained at altitudes between 8-9000ft is that they did get some acclimaitization effoct but the main thing we saw was that when they races at low elevations they had gotten slower but training so high. As you have already experienced, you have to move a lot slower at 7000ft than you do at low elevations. There’s just not enough O2 to support faster movement. Doing this day and day out engrains slow movement patterns. Most of your Skimo races are at altitude so this is not such a big problem since you are not racing Skimo at sea level. However I think you mmight see some benefit from doing a speed or endurance intensity session as low as you can easily find 1x/week.
Scott
Brian:
Thanks so much for writing in with your nice story and your questions about strength. At the point you have reached in terms of max strength, 60% of BW, I think you’d find good gains by moving to more power type training like hill sprints. The transfer over to your running performance will be better with hill sprints because the mechanics and rate of contraction are the same as running. Make the transition more gradual and go 2-3 weeks with 1 max and 1 hill sprint each week if you see gains that way then you might shift to 2x HS/week. My normal prescription is to keep 1x/wk HS when I move to the ME block.
I hope this helps.
Scott
Hey Nick:
Thanks so much for writing this wonderful story. It warms all the hearts here at Evoke to hear this. We know that opur approach works. Thousands of people have proven it. You don’t need to be a mutant, or a 20 year old. You just need these three things: Consistency, Gradualness and Modulation to make what, at first, appears to be a totally conunterintuitive approach work.
Congratulations. I think you have just scratched the surface of what you are capable of.
Scott
Bjorn:
Thanks for writing in with your questions. I will assume you are correct that you are FT dominate although I wonder how you determined this. But, here is my experience with FT endurance athletes as compared to a ST athlete:
FT:
- Has high anaerobic capacity and is able to produce high latate levels. This is the easiest way to see if FT or ST.
- Needs the easy days to be easier
- Must be careful to control intensity and not to train too fast on aerobic base training days. Be sure you can recover copletely from aerobic base sesisons within 24 hours
- Recruits FT fibers at lower intensities
So, I find thatit can be dangerous for a FT athlete to train with a ST athlete even if their race results are the same. The FT athlete will be at higher lacates and recovery between sessions will need to be longer.
With your injury history and hiatus from training I propose that you montior your recovery carefully to ensure your are recovering well and not app;lying another training stress when you are not recovered. This wold be the same rule I would use for a ST athlete but they would probably be able to handle a somehat higher volume of aerobic work,
Before starting an ME program I recommend you regain your lost strength,. Hill sprints during this prolonged base period you need are good for this but no longer than 10 sec and a full 3 mion easy walking.standing recovery between. Stop when you can no longer reach the high mark from previous reps.
It is easier to make a FT athlete into a good endurance athlete than it is to turn a ST athlete into a sprinter. You can can do this but it takes patience and a few years. I’ve done it with several athletes.
I hope this helps,
Scott
Matze:
I undertsand your question but I would like to correct one thing before we move on to answering what you asked about.
Unless your interest is in losing fat the main goal of aerobic base training is to be able to move faster at your aerobic threshold. I think most athoetes will have improved performance as their primary goal and the increased fat metabolism will be a follow on effect.
FATmax does not always coorespond to AeT. In my experience those two events tend to coinside in very well endurance trained athletes.
If these two points are far apart and your goal is to improve your fat useage you will need to train close to your FATmax. In that same athlete if on the otherhand you want to improve your speed at AeT you will need to train closer to AeT speed/HR.
I hope this helps.
ScottRadu has pretty much nailed it.
It is related to the “economy” or the energy cost of locomotion. I happen to know that Brian is taking up Nordic skiing after a 30+ year hiatus. Nordic skiing is one of, if not the most, technically demanding endurance sports. His current level of technical proficiency, especially in the skating technique is low enough that it is costing him significantly more energy to ski than it is to run.
Improving/refining technique in skiing is something that takes a lot of time and PERFECT practice. If you practice poor technique, all you do is get really good at doing it wrong. With only a handful of days on snow so far, this technique deficiency is totally understandable.
Major, like double-digit, gains in performance can be had by improving skiing or running economy. Whereas adding either more volume or more intensity can actually have the opposite effect on performance if you have poor technique.
Say you add high-intensity intervals to your training in hopes of increasing your endurance performance. But your technique gets worse when doing those intervals. You are perfecting poor technique. You are engraining inefficient movement patterns into the motor nervous system that can be hard to unlearn.
Scott
I think the real takeaway from both Jack and I is that there are different ways to achieve good results as long as you progress the load and monitor your response. If you’re not seeing progress then you can take action…..probably rest more.
Scott
It is my experience that the more you can control and monitor the intensity and measure the progress of high-intensity workouts the better will be your results. There is a reason professional road and track runners do their intervals on a track or at least on a course where they can control the pace. Same for swimmers and cyclists. The pace/power they use is determined as a percentage of a recent time trial, race, or test. This is not so common with mountain runners. I and one of our coaches, Jack Kuenzle, have used it to very good effect. Jack credits this type of training for much of the success of his 10-month-long string of FKTs. Tom Evans credits it with his last season’s success. Before that my skiers won multiple national championships and very strong World Cup results using a variation of this type of training.
You will give up a little specificity by being on a machine but the control and measurable progress more than outweigh that disadvantage in my experience. I have not done this on a stair master but will ask Jack to comment and see if he will divulge some of his methods.
On an incline trainer, you need first to establish “race pace”. With Tom I used a vertical km time trial at 25% grade. Others can use something analogous for their test. For XC skiers we used a 1600m roller ski time trial on a track. That way you know an all-out pace you can just barely manage. The training protocol involves building endurance at this pace by improving the aerobic support in the muscle fibers needed just below this pace. You’re increasing the size of the vacuum or aerobic capacity in those fibers. The protocol I have used with World Class long-distance mountain runners and World Cup Cross Country skiers is as follows: Use 95% and 90% of TT pace.
Warm up 10min flat run.
@10% 1200m @ 75% VK chk lactate
+ @15% 1200m 100% VK chk lactateWorkout @25%.
Using 95% and 90% of your VK avg pace.
5x 3min@90%+1min@95% continuous rest
2min break to check lactate
5x 3min@90% + 1min @95% continuous
2min break to check lactate.
10min cool down jog and hike at 5%
TOTAL OF 10 X 4 MINUTES WITH ONLY 1-2 MIN BREAKS TO CHECK LACTATE
Done 1 x every 7-10 days
Each workout. Very important: IF FEELING STRONG, REST, RECOVERED (If you don’t feel like this don’t do the workout. Take a couple more easy days.
To progress this series: In each workout you reduce the 90% time by 15 seconds and increase the 95% time by 15 seconds. By the end of the progression, you will be doing 1 minute at 90% and 3 minutes at 95%. Part way through Tom felt the paces were getting too easy and we increased them to 97% and 92%. You can also do another VK TT when you feel the training effect kicking in. Then recalculate the percentages. I’ve done it both ways.
This is a structured progressive training program that most mountain athletes are not accustomed to and some have pushed back against doing this. I have never in over 12 years of using this approach with a broad swath of elite athletes had this not provide outstanding results.
CAVEATE> This is for a very well-trained athlete with a high aerobic threshold. A time trial done on the same course at one’s aerobic threshold should give a time of about 90% of the race pace. If not you need more base training. Disregard this a warning at your peril.
Earlier in the base period, you will have done a block of Hill Sprints Start with very short (10-12 seconds maximum effort to teach your brain to recruit the most forceful fibers done on a very steep hill. between 6-10 reps with 3 minutes recovery. 1x/week We continue the hill sprints into this progression period. With Tom most weeks also included one steady state tempo effort or progressive distance run where the pace intcreases throughout the run.
I know this is a lot but you asked…….Is this as simple as going to a hill and running up it hard for a few minutes and repeating it several times? Not by a long stretch. But, have that big aerobic base before you start this.
I hope this helps the curious and high-level athletes.
Scott
Daniel:
The stair machine ME workouts work best with mountaineers. The tempo is too slow for runners. And you need the impact training that comes from the jumping exercises and the eccentric contractions in the gym ME progression I have laid out in the article by the same name on this site. I would suggest implementing that protocol. I think you will be very surprised by the fatigue resistance this build in your legs. I have used this to very good effect with hundreds of runners including the 3rd place finisher at UTMB this year.
Scott
Josh:
Thanks for writing in with yor question.
First some general theory:
Sprint training whether hill sprints or flat will develop power. As you probably know power=work/time. Work=force x distance. When it comes to muscles, Force = Strength. If you follow this logic you can see that Power is a function of Strength. When it comes to running faster it is far less importnat to be strong than it is to be powerful. That’s why the strongest athletes like power lifters are not the fastest. Strength training may improve your power if you are especially weak. If you can’t DL your body weight then you can probably become more poweful just be increasing strength. At some point in the development of strength the gains to power diminish and you will need to shift to power training. When this occurs is anyones guess. Many thousandfs of words have been written about the benefits of general strength training to improving sport performance. I’ll save you some trouble by telling you that no one really knows the answer. For more advanced runners I work with I lean much more on power training for performance improvement and use general strength for durability and injury prevention.
Now to answer your question:
You can do the max strength and sprints with tire on the same day. Do the power work first and then the max. Normally I would put these two workouts on different days separated by at least 72 hours. Normal periodization would be for 8 weeks of max strength then 8 weeks of power/speed. In your case with ultras max or pure speed is less important. The gains from the sprint training come in the form of running economy (increased stride length) at lower speeds. Add up a 2cm average increased stride length over several hundred thousdands os trides taken in an ultra and you can see where this pays off big time.
I hope this helps.
Scott
