[Brandon MacMullin]

I am following TFUA to train for my running goals. Is there any disadvantage to doing sets of max/high rep pushups instead of following the weighted 3 sets of 4 rep protocol outlined in the Stage 3 Upper Body Program for Runners (page 221)?

Thanks

[Andrew Bollard]

High/max rep pushups, in my experience, carry a huge global fatigue cost. It’s not just your tris, pecs and delts that are being worked through the horizontal pressing motion; you’re also maintaining full body tension through your legs, core and back. So you’ll have more DOMS than with a 3×4 protocol, which could impact your aerobic capacity training if you’re too sore to train.

Max rep calisthenics like this have either a hypertrophy or muscular endurance effect, depending on how strong/muscular/experienced you are. They definitely don’t have a maximal strength effect, which is what a 3×4 protocol usually is. Hypertrophy is generally to be avoided for mountain sports unless you’re extremely frail and undermuscled, as unnecessary muscle weight is just as bad as unecessary fat weight. Muscular endurance is desirable, but only after having maximised maximal strength and aerobic capacity for a given training block. It shouldn’t be mixed with a max strength phase and/or an aerobic capacity building phase, so mixing high rep pushups with other low rep, heavy weight, long rest period movements is a big no-no.

So, to answer your question: yes, there is a disadvantage in that you’ll be creating a completely different training stimulus.

[Brandon MacMullin]

Thanks Andrew. The reason for my question is high/max rep pushups are just easier/more time efficient to do because they do not require going to a gym or buying equipment.

I would not be mixing high rep pushups with low rep, heavy weight and as a former gym bro, I already have more muscle and strength than I need.

I guess my question should have been given my situation do I really need to follow the 3 x 4 max strength protocol? or can I get away with doing high rep calisthenics like a military selection training plan.

I like your point about the fatigue cost. It hasn’t gotten in the way of running yet, but I noticed doing high rep core, pushups and pull ups on top of my run is making me pretty sore.

 

 

 

[Andrew Bollard]

@alpinewithb Thanks for adding context, your question makes a lot more sense now. I’m in the same situation as you; before I started cutting weight and doing structured endurance training, I was 200lbs on a 5’10” frame, way too heavy and muscular to enjoy mountain sports without getting gassed on every uphill section. Folks like us can definitely get away with reduced strength training and instead focus on adding more aerobic capacity training.

You could definitely get away with not following the 3×4 protool to the letter; however, I personally wouldn’t replace it with a high-rep calisthenics protocol. For a former gym bro, that kind of work will probably have a muscular endurance effect, which would explain why you’re getting pretty sore. You could do a lower intensity maintenance program just to keep up your strength without wrecking yourself through high rep work, so that when you go to do an ME block you’ll still have plenty of max strength capacity to draw upon. Something like Dan John’s Easy Strength could be perfect, although I appreciate that you want to avoid gymming or buying more equipment. What equipment do you currently have access to?

[Brandon MacMullin]

Currently at home I have a pull up bar and a set of plate loaded dumbbells with approximately 40 lbs each.

I have a gym membership, my hang up is just the time it takes to go there now. Doing upper body strength work at home would save me a lot of time now that I am running more.

Thinking I could get a TRX or a set of rings to make the callisthenic movements more of a max strength stimulus.

Thanks for the recommendation re Dan John’s Easy Strength, I’ll check it out.

[Andrew Bollard]

@alpinewithb Completely understand about the time cost of going to a gym. Doesn’t sound like it’s worth it in your case because strength isn’t your limitation. Rings would be a cheap and effective way to create more of a max strength stimulus for your upper body. And attaching those dumbbells to yourself for pullups would work well too.

Re: Easy Strength, you may not have access to enough resistance to do lower body movements; lunges with both dumbbells sounds like the best you could do with your current setup. I wouldn’t see this as a problem though, because leg strength is presumably not an issue for you.

[Josh Gray]

I recently picked up the 60 pound version of this vest to complement my dumbbells & kettlebells  and have been reducing the weight to 40# and super setting elevated feet  push-ups & ring  pull-ups to break up between my box step up sets and step downs. Really happy I picked it up so I can do “max strength” protocols for all my exercises.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 6 months ago by Josh Gray.

[Scott Johnston]

Great conversation going on here.  I don’t have much to add but a couple to thoughts come to mind.

A max strength protocol ( ~90% 1RM low reps/set for several sets) won’t add mass, will increase strength (unless you are all already very strong), won’t make you sore, does not take much energy, and can speed recovery from your aerobic sessions.  To do it at home: Pull-ups, Push-ups with a vest, and/0r elevated feet.  Single leg exercises.  SL movements like decline squat, pistol squat, Bulgarian Split Squat, SL Romanian DL do not require nearly as much resistance (heavy bar or dumbbell) to get an adequate strength training effect, and they are more specific to running, skiing, hiking where you people yourself one leg at a time and need hip stabilization.

I hope this helps,

Scott

 

 

[Andrew Bollard]

Thanks for joining in Scott. I guess the $64,000 question here is “How strong is too strong?” Myself, @alpinewithb, and @josh (if I recall correctly from another topic) all seem to be in the same boat where strength isn’t our limitation for our chosen goals. So for folks like us, it can be hard to judge how beneficial max strength training would be vs devoting more time to aerobic capacity work, which is where our limitations usually lie.

To put some context on my own situation, at a bodyweight of 81kg and a height of 1.78m (178lbs and 5’10” in American) I can do a 2RM of 101kg total load in the box step up on each leg, 5×5 in the single leg deadlift with 2x32kg kettlebells, push press 2x32kg kettlebells overhead for 4 reps, 5×5 windmills with a 32kg kettlebell, currently swinging a 36kg bell for the gym-based ME program… You get the picture. I’m pretty confident that my strength is sufficient for my mountaineering goals, which at the moment only consist of a 7 day Mont Blanc itinerary in June.

Another factor for me when I started structured training for Mont Blanc last July was a kind of burnout; I had been consistently lifting weights for nearly two years at that stage, and I was getting bored to be honest. I found it quite hard to motivate myself for strength training, whereas with aerobic capacity I knew I had a lot of low-hanging fruit to pick and so I was much more motivated to consistently run and hike. I’d be curious to hear if anyone else has ever experienced this too.

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