[Josh Gray]

Hi all,

I am currently planning my upcoming training block wondering if fitting in a longish aerobic activity (90-120 min trail run or weighted hike) in the AM and performing a gym ME workout in the evening would be recommended. Of course the following days would be recovery activities . I’m just trying to figure out how to get in more aerobic volume with how much DOMS I can get with ME work.

• This topic was modified 1 year, 6 months ago by Josh Gray.
• This topic was modified 1 year, 6 months ago by Josh Gray.

[Andrew Bollard]

It’s hard to say without knowing more about your training background, current weekly volume and objectives you’re training for, how much experience you have with ME and how your body responds etc. If you know from past experience that you can do an AM Z1-Z2 session and recover well enough to do a PM ME session and it suits your schedule then I’d say go for it, assuming you’re already modulating the volume and intensity of your aerobic capacity work as best you can. If you provide more details, then hopefully someone more knowledegable than me will be able to provide a more concrete answer.

[Josh Gray]

Thanks for the reply Andrew,

I’m currently training for mountain hunting for this coming September. I was at 8 hours last week and am finishing week 8 of my transition period. About to move into 8 weeks of max strength but being that I’m already relatively strong I was considering beginning a gym ME session midway into that period to prep for the later specific ME period. I’ve done ME for shorter periods in the past and am typically very sore for the 2 days after. I’m planning on doing more recovery with swimming but it just seemed I could possibly fit  in more  volume before i hit that doms period.

[Andrew Bollard]

You mention that you’re just finishing your transition period and that your objective is in September, so there’s really no rush to either 1) add ME or 2) add a load-bearing aerobic activity on the same day as ME. You still have all of May, June, July, and August to work with. Trail running has a very high impact on the legs, so if you’ve had a lot of DOMS from ME in the past then programming trail running on the same day as ME sounds like it could leave you really beat up in the following days. In any case, you’re just finishing the transition period and starting the base period, so ME should be further down the pipeline.

Gym-based ME is still ME, so it works best when you’ve maxed out your aerobic capacity and max strength for a given training block. Ideally, you would get your AeT to within 10% of your AnT before contemplating an ME program for best results.  You could program a 6-week block of max strength instead of 8 weeks, which is still long enough to see gains. Can you put some numbers on your current strength? E.g. are you deadlifting 2 times your bodyweight, squatting 1.5 times and benching bodyweight. My understanding of mountain hunting is that there can be a significant strength requirement depending on the size of the animal being hunted and carried out of there.

When you do eventually start ME and you want to incorporate some aerobic activity on the same day, could you program something lower impact like unweighted hiking, or even swimming or cycling? That’ll leave your legs fresher for the ME session, which is the “money workout”. I’m 4 weeks into an ME block myself, and I’ve incorporated 30 min cycles on most weekdays as I find them great active recovery. See this screenshot as an example: 

By programming ME mid-week and incorporating lots of active recovery, I can still do 3 aerobic capacity sessions, including long ones at the weekend, so that I maintain my aerobic base. The usual caveats apply that we all need to individualise our training to suit our circumstances, so don’t look at the above and take it as a rule to be followed. It’s just a practical example of what programming something the same day as ME could look like.

[Josh Gray]

Thanks again for the reply Andrew,

I like your idea of a shorter max block. I currently don’t have access to barbells but last year I was dead lifting 1.8x BW and squatting 1.5x BW for 5 reps. Currently using a combination of kettlebells up to 2x24kg and a 27kg vest for lunges step ups and such. I can currently do 5 sets of 3-4 step-ups with about 67 kg. Bodyweight is currently at 80kg.

I like the idea a incorporating more cycling in as recovery. That’s something that would be easy for me to implement.

I haven’t done a drift or ANT test recently but based on a gas exchange test I did a few years ago, my HR (minus a few beats for age) and paces are getting closer to when I was within 10%

What I was planning on doing with implementing ME was 5 weeks into my Max strength period shorten one of the gym max efforts and do a shortened version of the ME workout at the end, like only 2-3 sets. Then gradually increase one set a week (while completing a short max lift for maintenance) so by the time  I’m starting my ME period I’m at 4-5 sets of the exercises and hopefully accustomed to the stress enough to start doing water carries within the same week.

Also I guess I should mention I will be incorporating tire drag sprints with one of my gym max sessions.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 6 months ago by Josh Gray.

[Andrew Bollard]

@josh No worries, I did a lot of kettlebelling and built up a solid amount of muscle before I got serious about training endurance, so the ME topic really interests me.

You sound like you’re approaching the limit of useful max strength for your bodyweight; TftNA (I think) doesn’t recommend going beyond e.g. deadlifting x2 bodyweight as the law of diminishing returns kicks in and the additional muscle needed to support that strength starts to become a detriment to mountain performance. So you can definitely go for a 6 week block as you’re already strong enough for a mountain athlete. In fact, I wonder if you could get away with a 4 week block just to maintain your gains and focus more on building aerobic capacity. Your tire drag sprints will be excellent here, as you already have a high level of general strength and sprints would be the perfect way to convert that into more sport-specific strength.

It’s probably not advisable to rely on a test you did several years ago, even one as accurate as a gas exchange test. You should do an AeT and AnT test to confirm where you’re currently at; you may be pleasantly surprised and find out that you’re very close to or even within 10%, meaning you can start ME work sooner.

[Josh Gray]

Andrew,

I think I’m going to take your advice and just program a 6 week max block then devote a full 12 weeks to ME and tapering. Also gonna keep getting more easy biking in a lot of evenings. Started that this week and it’s really seemed to help me feel recovered after my first sprint session. I’ll try and retest my AeT & AnT in the coming weeks, I hope your right! Thanks again for the advice and dialog!

[Andrew Bollard]

You’re welcome, glad to hear the bike is already making a difference. Best of luck with your goals!

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